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#26 2012-05-24 16:36:45

Sajuuk
Member
Registered: 2010-04-17
Posts: 36

Re: A privet message sending system !

That's two people. I can't see why you cannot just add this and have a setting for people to disable this if they don't want it. It's hardly difficult to add such a setting. If someone doesn't want this, they don't have to.

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#27 2012-05-24 17:52:18

François
Member
From: Lyon (France)
Registered: 2009-09-01
Posts: 197
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

With extensions, adding a functionality will be as simple as to enable/unable a feature in the admin panel, so where is the problem with keep in the core just that a forum really is (user, forum, topic, message, moderation actions), and let the rest to extensions ?


Sorry for my English, I'm French

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#28 2012-05-24 18:01:51

Mark
Member
From: Southport, Uk
Registered: 2008-05-03
Posts: 489

Re: A privet message sending system !

François wrote:

With extensions, adding a functionality will be as simple as to enable/unable a feature in the admin panel, so where is the problem with keep in the core just that a forum really is (user, forum, topic, message, moderation actions), and let the rest to extensions ?

Well said.

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#29 2012-05-24 18:46:55

Sajuuk
Member
Registered: 2010-04-17
Posts: 36

Re: A privet message sending system !

François wrote:

With extensions, adding a functionality will be as simple as to enable/unable a feature in the admin panel, so where is the problem with keep in the core just that a forum really is (user, forum, topic, message, moderation actions), and let the rest to extensions ?

I doubt a user is going to want to install extensions just to get Private Messaging or any other system. What is the harm, seriously, in just adding Private Messaging as core with a setting to turn it off if you don't want it? There isn't any harm, so your argument is invalid.

Anyway I'm done with this because I'm beating a dead horse and I'm wasting my time trying to point how PM's are essential to the forum as a core feature.

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#30 2012-05-24 18:52:51

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

Sajuuk, You sound like me big_smile

Just accept it man, in the end they are the developers we can only offer/suggest feature, they can do w/e they want wink

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#31 2012-05-24 22:23:18

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,047
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

This really isn't about doing what we want - we want to listen to the community, too -, but rather staying true to our philosophy. This topic has been discussed quite often.

Sajuuk wrote:

I doubt a user is going to want to install extensions just to get Private Messaging or any other system. What is the harm, seriously, in just adding Private Messaging as core with a setting to turn it off if you don't want it? There isn't any harm, so your argument is invalid.

The idea is we want to make features easy to add, not easy to remove. Fits the "is light-weight and does not have everything" approach better, I think.


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#32 2012-05-24 23:14:06

FSX
Former Developer
From: NL
Registered: 2008-05-09
Posts: 818
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

I know I haven't contributed almost anything lately. So this is my personal opinion. Some of the points I make are from other people. I'm just repeating them. And I'm not going to quote everyone I respond to. Too much work.

A personal message system does not belong to the core. There's already email. Email is also required to register and to restore your password. People don't use email? I don't care. Don't want other to see your email address? Make a new address or just don't talk.

Indeed a PM system doesn't make the forum noticeable slower. I guess it adds maybe two queries to check for new messages. The point is FluxBB's goal is to remain simple and only provide the core features of a forum. A PM system is not a critical feature for discussion in a community. FluxBB needs to remain simple. That was the core idea of the person who first started to develop it. And we, the current developers, agree with that idea.

Adding a PM system, because other forum software have it. Do like the others do. Nails that stick out will be hammered down. Something like that I guess.

And caching forum pages, Newman, isn't going to work. The data that's displays on the forum changes too frequently. That means you have to invalidate and fill the cache a lot. That would cause more strain on the server than using no caching. It's not that simple. There has already been discussions about this topic in the past.

And FluxBB 2.0 is going to have an extension system. That solves all problem. "But need to do something to install extra stuff!" Well, you always do something to do something. Less than 10 minutes for installing an extension doesn't kill a person. You are not going to compile C code or something like that. One-click install is a piece of cake.

What you are doing when you add extra functionality to the core is adding unchangeable features. You can't change a certain feature you don't like, or you have to do a lot of work to change a certain thing. By keeping the core simple as simple and clean as possible, you can extend it very nicely. You have less limitations and more freedom.

And I also think that holding to your own values is more important than that gaining popularity. If you stray from your values your product will lose its value. It will just be some mediocre product that follows others, following the same path as them.

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#33 2012-05-24 23:19:52

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

A Pm system does not use any extra queries to check for new private messages.  Store the newmessage variable in the users table and explode all details u need in it for each user. If newmessage variable exists (They got a new message) notify the user, it's simply calling another row from the users table, 2 query thing you are talking about is nonsense.

Im not talking about caching the whole forum index, im talking about caching the forum names/etc, and obviously need to use sql to grab last_post/topics/etc.  Sorry I wasn't clear about that. My bad.


FSX wrote:

Adding a PM system, because other forum software have it. Do like the others do. Nails that stick out will be hammered down. Something like that I guess.

Well it's not because others have it, I could careless what other forum software features have, it's just a basic necessity and common sense, that's just me though.

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#34 2012-05-24 23:28:39

FSX
Former Developer
From: NL
Registered: 2008-05-09
Posts: 818
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

The example I gave about the two queries was just an example. The implementation is not relevant. Please read the other points I raised in my post.

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#35 2012-05-25 01:20:07

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

Like I said, Im not even going to argue with you guys, you obviously don't think a PM System is essential to a forum software, so why am I trying to rebuttal your claims?  It's merely laughable to say the least.  I guarantee Rickard Andersson would be on my side on this.

Last edited by Newman (2012-05-25 01:20:46)

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#36 2012-05-25 01:54:50

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,047
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

Oh, come on. He's the reason we're handling this this way: http://punbb.informer.com/forums/post/5486/#p5486

(Just couldn't resist. tongue)


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#37 2012-05-25 02:55:50

iatkrox
Member
From: US
Registered: 2012-03-03
Posts: 89
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

Newman wrote:

Like I said, Im not even going to argue with you guys, you obviously don't think a PM System is essential to a forum software, so why am I trying to rebuttal your claims?  It's merely laughable to say the least.  I guarantee Rickard Andersson would be on my side on this.

Same here dude! These guys are not going to here us! they do there own ideas! hmm


While most are dreaming of success, winners wake-up and work hard to achieve it.

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#38 2012-05-25 04:20:34

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

Franz wrote:

Oh, come on. He's the reason we're handling this this way: http://punbb.informer.com/forums/post/5486/#p5486

(Just couldn't resist. tongue)


Almost 12 years ago when emailing was the main method of communication am I right?

(Just couldn't resist. tongue)

Like I said, I don't care what you do, but you do have to agree I do have a valid point here.

Last edited by Newman (2012-05-25 04:21:10)

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#39 2012-05-25 04:34:48

Smartys
Former Developer
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 3,139
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

2012-2003 = 9

"(Just couldn't resist tongue)" | If you're going to try to be a smartass, at least do your math correctly.

---

Current developers have commented on this topic in much greater detail and much more calmly than I can. But I think the points can be summarized fairly succinctly.

Rant as much as you want about how essential a private messaging system is. Argue as much as you want that your user base hates email and thus wants you to implement a worse version of email on your site. If that's a "killer feature" for you and you're not willing to modify your forum's code, FluxBB is not right for you. Whining will not change that. Complaining will not change that. Being a smartass will not change that. You are not the target audience for FluxBB: please feel free to go elsewhere and use other software.

37Signals wrote:

Some people argue software should be agnostic. They say it's arrogant for developers to limit features or ignore feature requests. They say software should always be as flexible as possible.

We think that's bullshit. The best software has a vision. The best software takes sides. When someone uses software, they're not just looking for features, they're looking for an approach. They're looking for a vision. Decide what your vision is and run with it.

And remember, if they don't like your vision there are plenty of other visions out there for people. Don't go chasing people you'll never make happy.

(Source:  http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch04_M … ftware.php)

Last edited by Smartys (2012-05-25 04:37:23)

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#40 2012-05-25 04:42:59

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

Like 9 or 12 is a difference? Emailing system is worthless nowadays, stop thinking in the stone age.  Emails today are only used for business purposes, not to chat with some random kid on a forum.  A PM System is essential to any forum software, not just because all the other forum software have it, but because it's common sense.  Don't you see that?

Also how is a PM System a worse version then email? Not to be rude, but you obviously have no idea what a PM System does to a community.  Let me explain it to you step by step.

User a sends a private message to user b.
User b receives this message in joy.
User b replies to message.
User a receives the message in joy/happiness.
User b keeps checking back on the forum to see if a new message has come, thus increasing page views and increasing forum activity. Not only increase forum activity but while users A and B refresh they might see new content like a thread, or something and post in it, thus increasing forum activity EVEN MORE.  Something you obviously do not want, am I right? Now ironically wouldn't forum software Developers want to strive to what I just explained above? Ofcourse, theres your flaw, I am waiting anxiously for a rebuttal or a claim that even comes close to an argument.

Think outside the box for once and be open minded, what I explained with USERS a and B are exactly why it's essential, but please, oh please I am waiting for your excuse.

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#41 2012-05-25 04:44:06

Smartys
Former Developer
Registered: 2008-04-27
Posts: 3,139
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

Rant as much as you want about how essential a private messaging system is. Argue as much as you want that your user base hates email and thus wants you to implement a worse version of email on your site. If that's a "killer feature" for you and you're not willing to modify your forum's code, FluxBB is not right for you. Whining will not change that. Complaining will not change that. Being a smartass will not change that. You are not the target audience for FluxBB: please feel free to go elsewhere and use other software.

Also how is a PM System a worse version then email?

Because you make the incredibly arrogant assumption that your forum(s) are so important that users should be checking them every moment or risk missing out on content. Given the number of sites and forums that I visit on a daily basis, I have no way to monitor all of them for private messages in any reasonable way. Email, as a push notification system (people can push content to it), allows me to be notified when there is content to be acted on.

Last edited by Smartys (2012-05-25 04:50:43)

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#42 2012-05-25 05:46:27

imnotjames
Member
Registered: 2012-05-25
Posts: 8

Re: A privet message sending system !

Newman wrote:

Like 9 or 12 is a difference? Emailing system is worthless nowadays, stop thinking in the stone age.  Emails today are only used for business purposes, not to chat with some random kid on a forum.  A PM System is essential to any forum software, not just because all the other forum software have it, but because it's common sense.  Don't you see that?

Not really, but okay.

Newman wrote:

Think outside the box for once and be open minded, what I explained with USERS a and B are exactly why it's essential, but please, oh please I am waiting for your excuse.

It isn't essential.  You could always be open minded and think outside your box.

FluxBB is supposed to be bare-bones.  A PM system will be against that.  It won't even be much of a performance hit, but a bloat hit.  A code bloat, and it means that every installation of FluxBB will have it.  Just because you want to use private messaging as a way to get more hits does not mean that the core of FluxBB needs to have a private messaging system built right into it.  It's FluxBB because it's a bulletin board, much like the old BBSs which, also, lacked Private messaging.

And anyway, just because it won't be in core doesn't mean an 'official' private messaging plugin wouldn't be developed.


While we're at it, I really need a cat picture chooser in core.  Where are we on that, Franz?  This is A1 top priority.  FluxBB is unusable without my random cat picture chooser.

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#43 2012-05-25 07:59:01

Franz
Lead developer
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-05-13
Posts: 6,047
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

imnotjames wrote:

While we're at it, I really need a cat picture chooser in core.  Where are we on that, Franz?  This is A1 top priority.  FluxBB is unusable without my random cat picture chooser.

Oh, gosh, thanks for reminding me. I'm sure I have a branch somewhere... tongue


fluxbb.de | develoPHP

"As code is more often read than written it's really important to write clean code."

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#44 2012-05-25 14:53:48

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

Smartys obviously has no idea how to run a community, saying a pm system is not essential.  Good luck with 10 members online.

Also, http://www.backyardchickens.com/f/ Used to be the biggest forum running punbb, I think they xfered to a new software, not sure.  But they had a pm system, I wonder why? Herp a derp.  You think 500 People online with no way of communication would love to send emails to each other? Hell no.
Also this forum: http://forums.bf2s.com/ Huge forum running  punbb has a pm system, do you think that forum would survive with no PM System?

DO you really think a user is going to send a email to someone to ask him to quickly join his game? Do you know insane your argument sounds? Absolutely ludicrous. No one is going to check there email 24/7, Like I said email is for business purposes only, something you seem to not understand.  Which sadly shows you are misinformed on this issue.

Stating facts to argue your insane argument about this is not a way being arrogant, it shows how close-minded some people can be, especially on this issue.  You seemed to leave fluxbb though, so I have no idea why you even post here.

Last edited by Newman (2012-05-25 15:06:23)

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#45 2012-05-25 15:15:33

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

imnotjames wrote:
Newman wrote:

Like 9 or 12 is a difference? Emailing system is worthless nowadays, stop thinking in the stone age.  Emails today are only used for business purposes, not to chat with some random kid on a forum.  A PM System is essential to any forum software, not just because all the other forum software have it, but because it's common sense.  Don't you see that?

Not really, but okay.

Newman wrote:

Think outside the box for once and be open minded, what I explained with USERS a and B are exactly why it's essential, but please, oh please I am waiting for your excuse.

It isn't essential.  You could always be open minded and think outside your box.

FluxBB is supposed to be bare-bones.  A PM system will be against that.  It won't even be much of a performance hit, but a bloat hit.  A code bloat, and it means that every installation of FluxBB will have it.  Just because you want to use private messaging as a way to get more hits does not mean that the core of FluxBB needs to have a private messaging system built right into it.  It's FluxBB because it's a bulletin board, much like the old BBSs which, also, lacked Private messaging.


Yes I agree with fluxbb being bare-bones.  But I would much rather replace the email system with a PM System...... You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, isn't a forum suppose to want more hits? More visits? More users?  What the heck are you trying to do on a forum if you don't succeed in what I explained above? Just that good "feeling" of a forum? Your argument is absolutely ludicrous as well. I could also say other areas are a code bloat, RSS feeders? Absolutely worthless feature, parsing bbcode each page refresh instead of storing it in HTML is probably the worst performance I have ever seen on a forum.  But that's a totally different argument if you want to get into that you should "Email ME!" Yeah right! I would never respond to you in that email.  But hey, if it was a Private Message, I would.  Because to me, emails are for business purposes only, not to chat with some guy on fluxbb.  But it's whatever.

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#46 2012-05-25 15:21:59

Otomatic
FluxBB Donor
From: Paris - France
Registered: 2010-01-26
Posts: 493
Website

Re: A privet message sending system !

Hi,
In essence, a forum is public. Except very special cases, the discusions should be seen by all.
If members of my forums want to make private exchanges, they will email or phone or mail or even by meeting themselves, but in no way via my forums.
For that by opening a forum, as a webmaster, I have responsibility for messages that are written. And I will not be responsible for the content of messages exchanged via an MP hosted on my forums.

There will be no MP on my forums. Endpoint.


Ce n'est pas parce que l'erreur se propage qu'elle devient vérité. Ghandi
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation. Ghandi

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#47 2012-05-25 15:27:18

arw
Member
Registered: 2012-03-20
Posts: 117

Re: A privet message sending system !

Newman wrote:

Smartys obviously has no idea how to run a community, saying a pm system is not essential.  Good luck with 10 members online.

Also, http://www.backyardchickens.com/f/ Used to be the biggest forum running punbb, I think they xfered to a new software, not sure.  But they had a pm system, I wonder why? Herp a derp.  You think 500 People online with no way of communication would love to send emails to each other? Hell no.
Also this forum: http://forums.bf2s.com/ Huge forum running  punbb has a pm system, do you think that forum would survive with no PM System?

DO you really think a user is going to send a email to someone to ask him to quickly join his game? Do you know insane your argument sounds? Absolutely ludicrous. No one is going to check there email 24/7, Like I said email is for business purposes only, something you seem to not understand.  Which sadly shows you are misinformed on this issue.

Stating facts to argue your insane argument about this is not a way being arrogant, it shows how close-minded some people can be, especially on this issue.  You seemed to leave fluxbb though, so I have no idea why you even post here.

it's what is fabulous about it being a mod, it can be installed if it's really needed...


as for the forum you quote, there has been 15000 pm for 45 000 users, even if only 1000 had ever pmed that did only "15 pms" by user, so yes I think the forum would not be dead


( and the profile fields "Battlefield 2 PID #", "BF3 Player ID", "MSN Messenger", "AOL IM", "XFire", "Steam Community ID" are probably more usefull to ask somebody to quickly join a game )

Last edited by arw (2012-05-25 15:29:58)

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#48 2012-05-25 15:39:07

Newman
Member
Registered: 2011-11-05
Posts: 344

Re: A privet message sending system !

Otomatic wrote:

Hi,
In essence, a forum is public. Except very special cases, the discusions should be seen by all.
If members of my forums want to make private exchanges, they will email or phone or mail or even by meeting themselves, but in no way via my forums.
For that by opening a forum, as a webmaster, I have responsibility for messages that are written. And I will not be responsible for the content of messages exchanged via an MP hosted on my forums.

There will be no MP on my forums. Endpoint.

You're wrong, there is a difference between Pm's and making a public post.  If people want there pm's to be private they should, not be seen by everyone. 

I am still waiting anxiously for a argument from Smartys about this, all he says is I am being arrogant.  But yet he refuses to make a stand or claim that even comes close to actually rebuttal ling my claim, same for you and the 3 other people in this thread. My mind is absolutely BLOWN.

People should be allowed to send pm's to each other regardless if you're the admin of the forum or not, whatever they send in PM's is none of our business anyway.  So you're wrong about having a responsibility for messages that are "Written" while anyone can send anything in a PM, that's the risk you're going to take.  It's not bad.  Just tell your users to delete it or ignore it.

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#49 2012-05-25 15:56:09

arw
Member
Registered: 2012-03-20
Posts: 117

Re: A privet message sending system !

yes but he is right in not wanting to host private content, it's his choice ( example of issue could be : "servers sized by authorities" )


and if you find it so important that all fluxbb have a pm system ( which doesn't seems the case for a lot of people, well the other can just install a mod ), fork it and just install the pm system in your fork

when there will be nobody using the fluxbb version without pm by default, surely the world will know how much you were right

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#50 2012-05-25 15:58:59

imnotjames
Member
Registered: 2012-05-25
Posts: 8

Re: A privet message sending system !

Newman wrote:

Yes I agree with fluxbb being bare-bones.  But I would much rather replace the email system with a PM System...... You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, isn't a forum suppose to want more hits? More visits? More users?  What the heck are you trying to do on a forum if you don't succeed in what I explained above? Just that good "feeling" of a forum? Your argument is absolutely ludicrous as well. I could also say other areas are a code bloat, RSS feeders? Absolutely worthless feature, parsing bbcode each page refresh instead of storing it in HTML is probably the worst performance I have ever seen on a forum.  But that's a totally different argument if you want to get into that you should "Email ME!" Yeah right! I would never respond to you in that email.  But hey, if it was a Private Message, I would.  Because to me, emails are for business purposes only, not to chat with some guy on fluxbb.  But it's whatever.

A forum is meant to act as a public medium of communication between people.

You also don't seem to understand what I meant by code bloat.  I don't mean performance, I mean the amount of code it takes to implement a feature.  If you include the feature for private messaging, you also must include code to turn it off, to block specific users from sending private messages, handling of email notifications of private messaging, etc.

RSS feeds aren't in the 2.0 branch as far as I see, and BBCode isn't going to be in core either.

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